>>9514
Alright. Okay. Fine. Let's debate.


>>You got is a bit wrong, because the reason why it was posted was because gurochan died and it was kind of attempt to save that content. The person who uploaded it to exhentai thought that those pictures will be lost forever otherwise. It was actually not so much about artwork itself as it was about how that gallery was tagged. What unfortunately ended as doxing.

The detail I got wrong doesn't matter, then. The point is that an artist was so negatively affected by have no way to remove his artwork from another website, that he had to stop drawing guro entirely and felt unsafe. We at gurochan don't have a way for artists to request their work be taken down. Now its willfully ignorant of us to not offer any rights to artists on this website.


>> There are some other threads on gurochan where people are trying to somehow recover works of artists who stopped posting and deleted everything from internet. I think it is serious moral issue by itself if creator is allowed to irreversibly destroy his own work or if that happens we should ignore his will and preserve it at any cost.

A moral issue? A moral issue isn't just anything that inconveniences you personally. Morality is based in goodness, goodness is defined subjectively. My personal definition of goodness is acting with empathy. In a situation like this where we have to choose between two parties: An artist or an artists fans, the empathetic choice is to give the artist the ability to do what he wants with his art. An artists fan, if his art is lost, will most likely forget that artist within hours or days, and has many opportunities to fall in love with new art, they have their memories of feelings, they'll retain the feeling the art gave them and find new sources of joy. They also already had the opportunity to save the art. It is completely fair if art that was given for free is suddenly lost without warning. It hurts, but it's not unfair. Seeing it in the first place was a gift. The artist is having a different experience. An artist, posting guro art, may want to delete because their art style has been recognized and they are in danger of losing their job, they may have gone through something bad and drawn vent art, and now feel attractions about their pictures. Art is a piece of a person, there's a chance an artist who needs to delete their work is suffering greatly.

So again, in terms of morals, if you want to show empathy then the artist, not the artists fan, needs be protected and preferred.


>> Advertising something is not participation that is, using internet terminology, better known as spamming. And spam is the only universally hated crime on internet. If artist is really participating by posting real content he is usually treated well. I don't see anyone asking them to post their other works for free either. But artists who post "trailer" and end with "pay to see the rest" are just irritating.

First off, advertising guro is participation. If someone comes to gurochan with a fat wallet, full balls, and 15 minutes and they see a post for purchasable artwork, they still get what they came to the website for. They'll still come back to gurochan for more. Who told you you got to decide what counts and doesn't count as participation? Just because something irritates you, that doesn't make it "not participation." Your posts on free art kinda irritate me (sorry) but you're sure as fuck participating here, I'd never say otherwise. Posts should be on topic but I don't care much weather or not a post delivers on the full premise. When I said advertise, I meant artists posting in /art/ with links to the patreon for the threads opening post. But if someone straight out advertised for something they wanted to sell in their thread in /art/ it's not like I'd give a fuck. If it works, "MONEY IN GURO! YAAAAAY" If no one buys it "THE ADVERTISER FELL TO THE BOTTOM OF THE THREADLIST! YAAAAAY" If it becomes spam central around here and everything is an ad for an off site service, sure, I'd make up some new rules and be right with you on it. But that's an imaginary gurochan I've personally never seen before. And I've been here constantly for more than a decade under multiple names. Double posting threads and posting non related content are still spam you can report that we will delete, so worrrying about advertisement spam which doesn't exist and probably won't, and if it does will be one post out of every 30 that can be ignored, is… Like… Making up problems to complain about.

>>Finally there is nothing wrong to take down works if their creator nicely requests that

I agree

>>(preferably with some warning so that everyone could download that at first) but actively deleting posts without artist request is a bit too much.

I disagree. I don't think there should have to be a warning, we don't know the reasons an artist might request their work removed, so we'll act swiftly and remorselessly. Giving people a warning to save it just giving them a chance to download and repost. It would probably exacerbate the issue for the artist. As for actively deleting posts without requests, I'm so so on that point. I am cautious not to delete anything that isn't hurting anyone in general, unless asked by the creator or poster.

>>Another basic unwritten rule on internet forums is that if some creator is participating in this forum properly, his desires are taken into account. If he just comes, requesting something he can be safely told to go back to where he came from. He is not "our" artist he is just some random irrelevant stranger.

"Oh, your art style got recognized and you're gonna lose your job if we don't drop it? Too bad you aren't around here posting more art, I don't know your name." What a fucked up way of thinking. No, I'm not gonna turn away artists that I don't recognize as having contributed before. I'm not going to refuse to apply rules to those who aren't participating enough. We're part of a larger whole, the guro community, and as our name travels around it with a negative connotation, an incredibly small pool of people we have access to shrinks ever more. I don't want to be good just to gurochanners, I want to be good to guro. What goes around comes around and I want what comes around to us to be good.

>> Rights do not come for free you have to pay for your right in some way. If artist is paywalling his work he is totally useless to people who are not willing to pay so there is absolutely no reason to respect his desires. To be respected he has somehow prove that by doing it, we get more value than by not doing it.

Alright, well first of all: Pay me.
You haven't earned your way to gurochan, I have the ability to ban you and I don't even really like you (sorry.) You didn't do anything to have your right to be here, you're here because it's a platform we offer for free. Rights, here, are free, rights are imaginary concepts we come up with and decide on. A right is a service promised to a people by those with the power to enforce it, and we don't have any rules here about having to earn any of our rights.

Second of all: Paywalling artists are users of this website too.
They have no obligation to us, and they don't have to prove themselves to us. They don't gain jack shit by proving themselves to us and can still come post here freely like anybody else. You're acting as though we offer them something for free work when we don't. Respect isn't worth jack when nobody around here even says please and thank you regardless. Respect? Do you mean being drowned in an endless swarm of requests that follow you to every website you post on? They have to prove ourselves to us so that… what… we'll enforce rules for them? If they need nudes taken down or something, that's extortion. They have to prove themselves to us so that… We'll do what? We don't do jack shit for artists and expect them to enjoy us ripping them off, and now we wanna start telling artists "Be part of our community, or else we won't enforce the rules?" You're saying we have nothing to lose by refusing to help, I'm saying THEY have nothing to gain by participating in our website. Someones gotta be the first to extend their hand and it should be the platform that hosts the art, not the artist.

>>Of course people who are willing to pay may complain because that creator may be providing some value for them if they assume that artist is selling his work at the lower price than their value. But this is actually the main question which side you choose. You can't have both. It is similar to Linux community where any commercial or closed code is extremely unwelcome. While non GPL companies label open source as "cancer" or "virus" and hate it just as much.

First of all people who are willing to pay don't fucking care if their shit is shared for free, they're not LOSING anything if you get art. The money they put in is gone and the digital artwork they recieve has no resale value. They want to support artists they love, and respect artists for offering a product in return for that art. The reason they'd be upset with thieves is because thieves stop their favorite artists from becoming self sufficient. All these patreons have little loading bars and tiered lists "Once I get here, I can make this game!" "Once I reach X, I'll be paying my rent with art!" And when someone steals, they stop alllll that progress in the artists life and it hurts for that artists fans.

Moving on, Ok here's the key thing about the open source metaphor. OPEN SOURCE shit needs to be open source because COMMUNITIES OF COMPUTER SCIENTISTS BUILD UPON WORK TOGETHER.
WE DON'T do FUCK ALL round here but circle jerk and share porn, the Open source argument is such bull. It makes sense in computer science but the same logic can't be applied to blame strangers for having the SKILL and ABILITY to make money off of their craft.

Porns not scientific research, it's not firewall software. Nobody benefits from stolen porn. You just fuck over the few people actually being productive who are spending their valuable hours making the shit you love, you fuck yourself out of more porn because these artists become increasingly more isolated to protect themselves and they fail to make a living on it because of all the theft, and you probably even fuck over the do nothing circle jerkers with a gigabyte of porn who get one more pointless endorphin rush to fuck over their brain chemistry even more, keeping them from even holding down a part time job without taking bathroom breaks to masturbate.

Look, I wanna get where you're coming from but porns not water and porn thieves aren't robin hood. No ones being saved, it looks to me like thieves are just ripping money out of the system so that they can feel good about themselves instead of the artists. I get that there's to many subscription model artists for anyone to be expected to buy them all but I would really just prefer to hear that. Not all this "open source" "freedom of speech" stuff. If it's too much to buy and you want it for free because you can't afford it all, that's shitty but we provide a place for that here and atleast it would be honest. What I find ridiculous is the idea that YOUR RIGHTS are being encroached upon by anyone. That you have a right to any and all artwork produced, and those that would stop you from viewing it are somehow being unfair to you…

That's just not true at all. It's because the internet is anarchy that you get all this free artwork. No rights, rules, or morals exist, it's just you taking advantage of a lack of regulation to steal. Feel free to do so but I don't see how you've spun up the idea that you're a good person for doing it.