Supporting the artist does come first (push for that like button on request btw).

That being said, are you saying people are making a full living on being Guro artist and supplying to and small, (although super strong) niche? Wouldn't that be kind of impractical and not a full means to make living money, but rather side projects and things they relatively were going to do but didn't necessarily have the funds/time for?

Also, wouldn't censored artwork or a teaser generally have no full affect for those who glance over it and move to the next post. Are you implying that they have a system of those who already support them (compared to those who use this site for free) and they just post on here for the occasional person who might pass up all these artworks to pay for content? I'm not saying to ignore them/their request altogether, but I don't really see a super big deal in a few pieces of old artwork they have stored in their larger archive atleast one pirate may have to pay for being leaked. I have literally gone to some of the Patreon sites and websites and seen the artist literally posting nonstop, damn near up to the date content and some artist whom I've never seen or heard of with their artwork popping up here. I literally didn't know they existed.

I think in general, not even all moderators or people care much for some content leaks. The underlying thing most people are saying is don't be boastful with the posting of the content, respect the artist (Also thank you Onix for being a contributor :) ), valid reasoning for having the artwork taken down (breach of anonymity, etc) should be taken into consideration,
* Special Sidenote: Is there a means of rebranding the pictures so they can't be doxed that can be added to the site? Was this also by chance someone recognized the style?
And most importantly, make sure to treat everyone respectfully despite maybe not getting your fantasy fulfilled by them and finding tasteful ways to relay your disappointment, especially when they post the paywall lol.

I remember I wanted an artist to redo one of their animations/make a new one and after a while just stopped asking. I just went to another artist and they fullfilled it with additional ideas I never even thought of. If you want something fullfilled btw, just ask another person. They might give you something better and encourage them to keep creating better content. Also, follow by Onix' example if you can and become that artist while also requesting and taking request so we all can grow.

>:)

>>9531
I am glad you understood my point and of course I do not expect you to agree or do what I want. Maybe within some time you may change your mind or maybe not.
As long as you do not use your power to censor other opinions it is all fine and enuogh.

But dam, I ended with pretty long response again. Not sure if you will even be willing to read it or respond.

>Again. I understand that piracy is a large part of our media here and that it is unavoidable, Im just still not quite seeing how piracy is "good"

It is not some huge issue but is pretty simple: we are competing for the same market if your competitors leave more profit for those who left
this is pretty basic economic theory. Yes we get somewhat enuogh of attention but with less competition we would get even more.
Also we may get more donations as well. Because people who buy content to support paid artists woud probably support us instead
if you compare patreon page of free artist and page of paid artist you will she pretty serious difference in their income.
I consider that a severe injustice and unless those supporters of paid work explain it why they give money to those artists more than they give to us it can be considered same issue as piracy when paid artists are indirectly stealing money from us.

Also take in mind that as free artists we are each other fans of some sorts we provide value to each other, but we have no relationships with paid artists we have no access to their work it is just absurd to give your work for free and then pay to get access to someone else works.


I do not see artists leaving guro I rather see their numbers slowly growing on pixiv and here as well.
the reason why they leave is usually the fact that guro is pretty controversial issue or because they get bored, not because they do not get paid.
reverse is even more likely because I see artists deleting their guro content when they get popular and start selling mainstream stuff.

art/porn market is totally over saturated. It is impossible to consume everything what is being produced
when talking with you and other people claiming that there is some kind of lack of guro or other content I wonder if we live on the same planet
according to my observations we have so much, that people are starting to ignore it and do not even bother to write comments.
we have problems in the very niche areas that lack content simply because very few people are interested if any at all. those nice areas are not even big enuogh to support one commercial artist, if you have 10 people who are interested in your fetish


While I woud be happy do discuss the end of capitalism and communism, but here I think it is enuogh to say that market will not go away even under communism it will just be diffrent motivation. You cannot apply capitalist society logic to communism.


>Just let sleeping dogs lie.
totally agree here, and it woud be nice if you do not interfere with that
we do not need any policies to hurt commercial artists neither we need to help them either. Let them naturally interact with everyone under same conditions and nature will do its job.
everyone who brings content to this site should be equally welcome even if this is pirate. If some disagreement happens mods can get in and deal with that as they see fit.
Piracy is natural process which is happening all by itself not because free artists are trying to sabotage something on purpose. No need to fight it or support it either.

>>9534
>People would rather see previews and freemiums than nothing at all lol, the artists that paywall actually do contribute even if you aren't paying.
>So there's value in that naturally, don't tell me you rather not see or know of the artist than skip out on some pictures they drew from their paid content.
>So people would be a masochist for reading mangas or novels that are known to be discontinued? Not how it works


The problem is that those artists deliberately construct everything is a way to irritate you as much as possible as if you were allowed to watch the movie until the most important moment and then told if you want to find out what happens next pay for the ticket. Artists should not actively manipulate people into buying his stuff. That has to be optional.

I have no problem with artists who give part of their content for free and part for money but just in that case if artist posts 2 pictures from 50 of all he made well that is pretty shitty contribution he deserves some mild ridicule for that not respect.

>No I meant being grateful when they view the pirated content.
>Obviously you seem sophisticated so not you, but many others here feel so entitled and bitch when people don't want to show them said paid content.
>And upon receiving them, they praise the pirate as some kind of hero, and the artist gets not a single word of recognition. I mean the least they can do is drop a like at the artists place and show their support. But they don't, that's what I hate.

Where you see the entitlement here?
You are not entitled for sun or rain but you still bitch if you don't get that when you need it

People are grateful to the one who brings that content to them if it is artist they will be grateful to the artist if it is pirate they will be grateful to pirate and see him as hero.

If you are not against free speech I you cant complain if people bitch when artist is teasing them or for any other reason they want to bitch. If someone will bring them what this artist is refusing to show they will naturally praise him as hero. What else you can expect?
the artist in that case deserves just "In your face. We still managed to get it regardless of all your efforts to deny access to this content."
I even observed situations when artist himself gets teased when pirates continue reuploading his work while chatting with the artist and everyone around are mocking him for being unable to stop it.

it is also bad experience for those who got it for free after all because now you kinda enjoy the fact that you beaten the artist instead of being his fan.

and if you got pirated version you can try to come to the artist and say "hey I downloaded your work you did nice job" but it is unclear how he will react as some do not like when pirates are praising them. some are actually nice enuogh and after their work gets ripped they just take the lead and enjoy new group of fans.

This is why I think it woud be pretty good idea for those artists to give private free access to their work to the people who are bitching about it most. It will totally change that attitude.
there is absolutely no need to to produce enemies for yourself and especially those who are very motivated.
like this guy is admitting >>9528 some people will never become your customers but they can spend in orders of magnitude more effort to get you work for free even if paying would cost less.

Whether pirated content is allowed or not seems like it'll depend on who the mods care more about pleasing. Artists with a pay wall in an oversaturated market who use manipulative tactics to get a leg up, or consumers and artists who make their work available publically. Attention and resources are limited and artists who don't block their work are probably underappreciated. Either way, anybody who pays artists with previews and a paywall is a sucker. They should be boycotted.

>>9539
Then it will depend on the extent of the previews, I agree with you if it's a cocktease, but if they show what we come here to see, then it wouldn't make sense to pirate their work since both sides would lose. Not to say it's disrespectful too.
Maybe we have different artists in mind but the few well known ones I follow supply more than enough guro for free and even releases their old paid content after a year.

You're right, they would praise them. I guess what I mean is they should be thankful for the artist too, after all, without the artist, there wouldn't be the art nor the pirates.
It's really their attitude that infuriates me, though not all pirates are the same, I've seen some acknowledge what they do is against the artists will and asks for viewers to support the artists work if they liked it.
But for those that think "fuck you artist, I got your paid content therefore it's my win" should be "thanks for sharing pirate, and thank you for drawing artist, I'll go drop a like on your pixiv or whatever"

To an extreme extent, yes, I believe people should be grateful for rain and sun too. But anyways, artists are humans, and feeling entitled to their art that they explicitly said not to share is just wrong in my eyes.
I'll be okay if pirates recognise what they do is morally wrong, as you can't deny that they are stealing from the artists.
Sure, if the artists didn't say anything about sharing, then go ahead.

I agree with this policy. As disappointing as I am when I see something is on Patreon and I'm out of Patreon allowance, pirating someone "up close" is crossing a few lines. Bragging about it crosses some more.

>>9540
How spoiled.

Giving all artists equal rights to protect the privacy of their work wouldnt be showing prferential treatment to paywalling artists. Wed be treating everyone equal, you would just have less porn.

You having less porn isnt bad for free artists, its good for them. Ostensibly they would get more attention of a huge chunk of their competition was cut out.

And its anti consumer? Consumers that do what? You dont pay for this website, so we dont owe you anything.

You dont get to simply *decide* that the value of other peoples hard work is exactly $0 and then pretend that you're at war and being attacked and that the mods here are either on this side or that one.

Value is arbitrary, if you think paywalled stuff isnt worth anytbing then dont buy it. Just because you think its worthless doesnt mean you should have the right to decide that the artists cant be able to sell it.

I dont know how you justify yourself here: "Give me everything youve worked on for free or get out. I will steal it from you."

Now guro chans like "maybe thats not how it should work…"

And youre like

"How dare gurochan fuck over the artist and consumer."

>>9541
>Maybe we have different artists in mind but the few well known ones I follow supply more than enough guro for free and even releases their old paid content after a year.


Yes, that can be the reason of our misunderstanding too, because I am mostly talking about 3d artists who use such dirty practices. maybe 2d artists seem to behave more or less properly. If artist is releasing his works after a year then I woud even completely agree with you that he should not be pirated at all.
But speaking about 3d where you can pump out 3 pictures in a hour (while half of that time you wait for them being rendered) and finish entire story in one day, posting few pictures as preview is plain mockery. You can release entire series with same amount of effort as it takes to draw 1 good quality picture.
If we have the situation like you describe, when the artist who is acting nicely and contributing reasonable amount of free content to be valuable, then I agree with you.



>But for those that think "fuck you artist, I got your paid content therefore it's my win" should be "thanks for sharing pirate, and thank you for drawing artist, I'll go drop a like on your pixiv or whatever"

I believe nobody wants to think "fuck you artist" It is pretty unpleasant experience which happens only if you get into the fight of some sort or if you do not really care about that artist at all, which is pretty common too.
With pirates, you can't chose what you get. Someone uploads something random, you take it, view it, giving 0.5 seconds of your attention to each picture and throw into your collection of trophies or trash can. What kind of gratitude you can expect here?
So please be reasonable too and care about the difference between those who are real fans and people collecting everything they can grab.

The bigger problem I see with 2d artists is that they treat their fans like shit. If someone makes a request, artist almost gets into rage pointing out that he will not move a finger for those who are not paying customers.
Is it that hard to be nice and respond with something "paying customers have bigger priority for me and I will consider your request when I will have free time."
or just something "thanks, I will keep it in mind" or "sorry, that is too much work" ?
Just treat requests like normal comments and enjoy attention, you are not obligated to fulfill them all.
When you observe that kind of artist behavior you lose any desire to be nice with them too even if it was another person to whom he responded.

>>9543
You can do whatever you want with gurochan and artists can do whatever they want with their art. Those actions have larger ramifications though. I personally believe the only valid way of making money through this kind of art is commisions and donations. Artists who don't block what they make deserve more attention because paywalls aren't anti-consumer, they're anti-community. A lose of art, that sub-section blocked by a paywall, isn't as important to me as how that art is distributed. I don't persoanlly agree with empowering people who do anti-community things. I don't think you're a bad person or anything, but that's how I feel.

>>9547
I also want to add that the big difference between online, one-man-band art and something like a video game, which needs a lot of money to be made, is that the only thing restricting an individual artist is their own time. Most likely, a singular online artist, especially one that does something this niche, wont ever be able to fully live off of their art. This is a supplementary income, to make an incredibly niche product. The pool of resources this small group can provide is very small. If they start getting much more attention, they'll probably do more mainstream stuff, because they're interested in money first and foremost like onix said. They're not invested.

>>9548

>[..]because they're interested in money first and foremost[..]

I give you the benefit of the doubt
and generously assume that you are
NOT an unemployed piece of shit and
actually work a job.

Tell me,
What are you first and foremost
interested in regarding a job?

>>9550
I'm a stem uni-student. I'm more interested in the job than the money. Also, supplementary income, which guro art is bound to be, is not the same as a day-job. You can't live off of it, so whatever you contribute should be more about the community than making an extra buck.

>>9551
Well, I guess not really should, but if their motivation isn't to help out by contributing art, at least eventually making it publically available, it's hard for me to see how they're really part of the group.

>>9551

Ah… Now I see where you're coming from.
A STEM student.
How interesting.

So you strongly believe in FOSS as in
free speech and free beer ;)
… uh… AND you don't have any money.

It's funny how you assume that
guro-artists are not able to make a
living off their artworks.

Boi, let me tell ya… You don't have
the slightest idea.

But hey, you are pursuing a career in
STEM. That's GREAT!
You are more interested in the job than
the pay? EVEN GREATER! YEEEHA!

Wait until you're sitting in an interview,
get low-balled as fuck and then tell me
how cool it is to be a highly qualified
employee with a shitty low-ass monthly wage.

Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

>>9551
You'll be surprised lol, there are guro artists that make a living.
Not going to name anyone but there are.
I mean obviously not all artists, but that shouldn't discriminate the ones that survive off of their art.
Guro is niche, but it isn't obscure enough to not be able to live off it. Especially if your art is top of the line.

>>9554
Just because there are few people in the world with 7 billion population it is not a proof that this is generally possible ;)

>>9555
So I think we should judge them on a case by case basis instead grouping.
Hope we can find a middle ground: for scummy artists, pirating is "okay".
For the ones that deserve respect, or the ones that live off of this, then it's not "okay".
Like you said, you seem to be exposed to the negative side of the spectrum of artists while the others probably have artists on the other side.

In the end, we should treat how the artists treat their audiences. Fair?

Ok, first of all, a reminder, this is what we're talking about.

https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/55737.html
https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/53771.html
https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/58229.html
https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/55736.html
https://www.gurochan.cx/g/res/66329.html

>>9556
Second of all: No, we're not making rules about the way the community generally feels about certain artists or waiting for gossip or hearsay to come in so we can decide to shaft specific artists. That's not fair, it's destructive.

We, gurochan, are not fucking responsible for how an artist treats their fans, and artists aren't going to be treated worse by us just because they treat their fans badly. Their fucking fans handle that, we're not gonna take the personal drama of every individual artist into our own hands. We either have rules about this sort of thing or we don't but we're not gonna pick and choose, mainly because:

https://www.gurochan.cx/art/res/7967.html

Third off, ayasawn– the person all those threads above are trying to steal art from, was posting here consistently with free art while also hosting a patreon with paid content. She was on gurochan before she even had a patreon being a huge part of the community. It seems the order of events is: She was here posting, had a couple haituses and stuff, imperfect as an artist, she went silent for a while *because she got into a fucking car accident* and by the time she returned the entirety of gurochan had been thrust into a conversation about how she's a shit person for paywalling her work, people were even asking for her patreon work to be posted in her own art thread while she was probably in the hospital.

>>9556
>In the end, we should treat how the artists treat their audiences. Fair?

Yes I agree. And I suppose most other people should also agree because it is pretty logical.
If artist cares not only about making money but also about nonpaying fans those non paying fans are supposed to care about that artist as well.

>>9558
It's illogical. Thats a rule enforced by a matter of opinion. "Scummy" is an adjective, it can't be applied in a reasonable rule– it's just weather or not you like someone.

Deciding who the rules apply to based on weather or not you like their off site business practices isn't *fair* by any stretch of the imagination. "Treating them how they treat others" isn't fair either, that's inconsistent. And we'd only be able to learn through hearsay. Besides, remember: I could say it's my opinion that Onix is scummy for defending piracy as a practice and then ban him. I could say "I'm treating you how you treat my favorite artists"

I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not flaunting my power in order to intimidate you guys. I'm just making a point. As a philosophy, picking and choosing who the rules apply to based on behavior and usefulness to the community is to subjective to yield the expected results.

>>9557
I totally did not expect that it is all about those threads. I did not even notice them at all.

I thought that it was all about some insignificant request where someone asked for some content from obscure japanese artist and that post got deleted while this scary threat appeared here, so I thought that if even those kind of requests are getting deleted it is pretty bad.

If this is about ayasawn I agree with you. But it looks like some kind of misunderstanding just like that other time.

>Second of all: No, we're not making rules about the way the community generally feels about certain artists.

You got is out of context as we were not discussing gurochan rules here but more like moral principles. (at lest this is what is think)

>>9560
That's fair. I let myself get riled up– I've let you beat me out in terms of level headedness.

I've said pretty much everything I need to say here, I'll leave the thread to others for some time. I think I've laid down all my thoughts that can be laid without repeating or stretching.

What I wonder is say a artist had a patreon or paywall but something happens to them or they pass what then
Though this question comes up every so often.

Well to answer that, the paywalled content ends up lost for all time

And to bring up something that should be obvious, the internet is for the FREE AND OPEN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS

>>9664
That implies that the people trying to pirate artwork have anything to exchange with artists beyond shameless requests for free shit.

Well, I've been around the guro community back when we were all still just a series of loosely connected yahoo groups, then we had 5chan's guro board and now we're here. I'll say that a lot of consumers have gotten pretty damn entitled. I've seen consumers complain about artists having a Patreon, when the only thing inside said Patreon were WIP and all finished works were free to the public. They talk out of their damn ass. Sorry that's not fucking okay. Secondly, everyone pirates stuff and if you want to shamelessly pirate stuff, by all means do it. Stop trying to justify it and act like you are some freedom fighter on the moral high ground. You really aren't. Acting that way is the opposite of being a shameless pirate, those are the actions of someone who does something with shame, who needs constant reassurance he's not doing something wrong. If an artist wants his stuff taken down, then please respect the artist's wishes. Everyone always debate whether piracy hurts sales and the truth is, it depends. Every business works under different conditions and circumstances and you do not know whether the business have alternative revenue streams. For example, piracy isn't a big problem for a musician, if a majority of his income comes from merchandise or paid gigs. The starting musician who loses money paying for data storage, selling his music online might not have the same luxury or circumstances.

In summary, I'm quite disappointed in how entitled everyone has become. When we had to pirate stuff back in grumpy grandpa Cursed days, we would e-mail the files to each other. We don't act entitled to it and we most certainly didn't brag about it. If you're gonna pirate, do so, but stop being a douche. If an artist asks for you to stop, don't attack the artist like an idiot. Seriously grow back the tact you lost.

To bring the topic to Exhentai there is an examole of the other extreme end…

Youtube

Where they take down videos when ANYONE claims they own it or even part of it.

It is sad one artist felt chased off and somehow violated that art that would of vanished forever otherwise is on that site but if I were Ex I would ask for proof he was who he claimed to be at least and at most ignore entirely to avoid coming close to what YouTube does

>>9674
This approach does not make much sense because you are basing everything on the lie.
You claim that pirating is wrong and yet you do it anyway.
you steal a bit here and there and at the same time argue that "stealing" is wrong.
I do not support that way. Either you obey your moral principle or you reject them entirely as something nonfunctional
Doing it half-assed way is the worst thing.
Since life without piracy is practically impossible. We should abolish that copyright idiocy entirely.


>>9585
according to capitalist artist agenda, all that work has to disappear.
because if all work will end in the public domain at the same moment we will have some much content that nobody in their sane minds will pay to any artists, and even artist themselves will run out of content to create because everything is already made.
so capitalists want all artwork to be just temporary so that everyone has to buy it and the moment when you can get everything you want for free never happens.

>>9677
There is no lie, piracy can potentially hurt some artists, not all artists mind you. They all have different circumstances. But as I stand, if you are going to pirate, there is no need to justify your actions. Just do it. However, there is nothing wrong with having the decency of being civil towards the artist that you might be hurting. We don't live in a black and white world. So can it with the morality talk. If anything piracy has always been a grey area. Just because we can't live without piracy doesn't change the fact it does harm. We can't live without fuel and agriculture either, but that doesn't stop it from destroying the land. Labor does not come free in this world. Until we have a sustainable abundance where every artist can be fed and housed, it is unreasonable to ask them to stop protecting their business. Even successful artists making 3000 per month on Patreon is making lower middle class income, even less after taxes and Patreon's cut. They are already the exceptional cases.

>>9679
I think I already addressed that sometime before, that it is not about money
so how artists make money is irrelevant to piracy.

The goal is not to make money for artists but to get more content into the public domain as the primary goal and the rest is the way how we do it.
Being civil with artists means that we are discussing that exact issue, as making a deal with artist allowing him to make money in exchange for his work becoming public domain.

Artists who agree to negotiate those terms and be reasonable deserve respect. Artists who think that they are entitled to copyright and their art is their property so they do whatever they want without any conditions are just as entitled as people who demand it for free.
I think it is time for everyone to learn the rule that people only care about you if you care about them. You get right as for of bargain where every right for you costs certain obligation.

So if you want people not pirate your work please pay to them for that.

>>9682
Well put, so what are your terms on piracy that can earn the artist a livable wage?

>>9684
First keep in mind that it is not about you making a living wage, it is about what you can offer to pirates to stop pirating your work. Because we are not just pirating it, as you may believe, we reject your right to have control over that work entirely. To be a pirate you need to acknowledge your ownership and I do not acknowledge it so I am not a pirate.

But this is easy to solve by using original copyright laws, that give you monopoly and right to control its distribution for a limited amount for time as compensation for your work and then you lose all rights to your work giving it to public.
I believe it could even work today to some extent if we reduce that time to 1 year or maybe even less because of how fast everything is going in the modern world.

You draw a picture and nobody is pirating it if you agree to upload it to public at max 1 year later. You will have plenty of time to sell it to those who are inpatient. If you failed to sell it in 1 year probably you wont sell it anymore and those who refused to buy it in 1 year probably will never change their mind.
so win-win situation
In fact it is nothing new. This is why copyright and patents laws were invented in the first place. Not to allow you to make money but to make you make more public content.

Of course some pirates will still break those rules, but they will not be so well received as now when they are treated as heroes. People will rather just wait 1 year to get that content than go in the fight with artist. You will be compensated for not pirating and that is good incentive. people who download pirated content will tell to the pirates that "please don't do that because we rather want to get this content later than make artist stop producing it entirely"
It will be way better relationship where everyone knows that you will get it some time later if you do not pay.

I see some artists are voluntarily adopting that principle and it seems to work well to some extent.
Probably this can even be negotiated on the individual basis. Just tell your fans not to distribute your stuff and in exchange you will post it all yourself some time later for free.

I thought it had already been discussed that the mods didn't really care unless someone was bragging or the flow of work being "pirated" was too big.

Personal side note: I never understood why they broad cast here (on a free work website) for others to purchase their work and then others having a problem with (some of the authors themselves don't even care about) the additional work they do popping up here. Why would they broadcast to thoe who directly come here for literal free art.
Another note, the mods said they wouldn't directly go out of their way to delete everything and in so many words to keep it tasteful along with keeping in mind that if the artist asked for it to be removed for personal reasons they had the descretion to do so. If you have the works others ask for, post them if you want. You however have to keep in mind they might be deleted at anytime. If you see someone asking for works, don't batter them/don't respond if you don't want. On either side it takes your eyes off the most important things, like these beautiful works of art being created. Appreciate them and each other even if varing in opinion.

>:)

Um…

Why not just require artists send a DMCA request? That way you don't have to fuck over the community and you can still follow the law.

You know how I look at this? Posting art on anywhere on the internet, even a paywalled, is like letting people borrow your super car for some cash. Some people will fucked it up, but most won't. Except that in this case, that one car can multiply themselves and get handed around. Which is somehow a good and bad thing at the same time. Some people will see it and want to get your car, and pay you. Some won't and will just get that copy. I look at it as a good thing, if my art start getting pirated, that meant I have archived something.

Well, I won't be pleased much, but looking at it this way made life a bit easier.

Fuckin Tightenheart paywalled all their stuff now, what was formerally free. I hate paywalls

The only problem with paywalls is that lot of the paywalled stuff is not worth the money.

>>10120

Well,
If your problem with paywalls is,
that it's not worth the money,
why is that even a problem.

If the stuff isn't worth any
money to you,
I guess you do not want it.

If you do not want it,
why do you bother about it
being paywalled?

>>10123

Thats a circular arguement and you know it.

The problem is when they get people hooked then hide behind paywalls, turning their backs in the fans, and acting like drug pushers. (Only a free taste to get you hooked)

>>10134

I have to admit,
it actually seems like
a circular argument.

In short:
If it 'hooks' you,
I assume, the Art has to be good enough
to be at least worth something.

Right?

If the post I was replying to,
would explicitly state,
that the free stuff out there
was actually good,
but as soon as you spend money,
to see what is beyond the paywall,
you are greeted by the disappointment
that the artist cherry picked his/her
best works to lure you behind closed
doors just to feed you the trash and
the leftovers, effectively making you
pay for it,
then I would have agreed.

>>10138

It is kinda the same tactic as drug dealers or loot box peddlers.

Lure them in p, get them hooked, then gut them

Kinda like Tightenhearts tactic

>>10139

I'm not a big fan of patreon either,
admittedly.

But I can understand the struggle
most artists are facing,
when it comes to moneymaking.

In my opinion,
this specific struggle
originates from following situation:

artist < audience

The artist isn't actually good enough
to deserve to get paid,
but desperately tries
to monetize anyways.

The majority of artists out there,
especially on Patreon are crap.

If the product they are able to deliver
isn't good enough to maintain
themselves,
They reach for cheap ass marketing
strategies.
Some of said strategies might drive
some (mostly short term) success,
doomed to be recognized and immediately
imitated by their peers.

In the long run,
this leads to discredit of the entirety
of artists.

People are sick of the patreon logo,
patronizing in the bottom right or
upper left corner of an artwork.

People are sick of the disappointment,
that kicks in, immediately,
after you paid yourself through
the first wall, realizing that there
are more walls to come and within
these walls there's nothing worth
paying.

People are sick of the obviousness,
shady marketing tactics
and shameless plugs slap into their
faces.

[…could go on for days…]
—————————————

Sum it up:
99 Percent of the artists out there
are miserable and do not deserve
better.
In fact, they put themselves there in
the first place.

Worth buying? -> NO.
Worth pirating? -> NO.

So why pirating?
Despite all the reasons some bullshit
pirate will give me about freedumbs,
Kommunism, blah…blah…blah..,
I still think it's malice.

Not malice without a reason,
but still inacceptable.

Pirating is just the
'FUCK YOU' to slap in the face of the
artist, possibly because of
disappointment, hoping this would
hurt the artist.
Revenge.

'yiff.party' is a great example of this.


So please,
dear pirates,
spare me the BS arguments about
'experience' 'freedom' '<insert here>'
and just stick to the truth.
—————————————
BTW:
looked this guy up.
Personally,
I think he is annoyingly mediocre.
Typical low-effort manga/anime.
For me, not worth the money.
Not digging it.

>>10139
Not entirely sure what you mean by this but I woud say that if artist is providing "samples" of the story and then demanding money to get the rest he deserves punch in the face or at least all his work to be ripped of without any respect.

But if artist is providing some paid content and some free content we can sort of tolerate that if you do not end with unfinished stories which you can't resolve unless you pay.

As usual I still stick to the idea that any kind of artist is just as useful as much he gives to the public domain, if he gives nothing or too little he is not worth anything at all. He can just drop dead from starvation and nobody should care.

>>10142

yeah,
that almost gets the essence of what
I tried to say.

Unfinished stories,
cliffhangers,
cropped out or even censored
images,
sketchwork only for free,
fully worked out work for pay…

…inciting hopes, that the artist
knowingly leaves unfulfilled…

etc.

Shady business.

share your opinion.
—————————————-
The problem is,
where to draw the line between what
is considered 'shady' and what is
actually reasonable.

For Example:
Once upon a time…
I drew a comic,
Every single Panel was at least
A3 resolution, if not even bigger,
containing a F*** insane amount of
detail.
Took forever to finish this.

To publish just a single page,
I had to downscale the digital
version, thus,
'scrambling' a lot of the details.
Shit happens.

Within a certain forum at that time,
the downscaled version of given comic.
was available for free.
No exception.
Start to finish.

It was NOT tiny.

For anyone, being member of that forum.
The forum was free to register,
so technically, everyone could have
had access to it.

I had in mind,
to monetize it the following way:

'Sorry for the scrambling,
couldn't handle it otherwise.
If someone wants a specific panel
in it's original size,
just shoot me a mail with the panel
number and a paypal of neccessary
amount, and I'm gonna mail
you the Biggest version I have.

Here are the prices for each panel:
[list of reasonable prices for each
panel, none of them above two digits]'
—————————————-

Onix,
pleas let me know your professional
judgement.
Is that fair?

>>10144
If your post is big enough to be readable and reasonable quality it is all good. Selling more detailed pictures for those who want ultra quality is all fine. Prices do not matter here at all.

But if you scale down your comic to the level where the text is only barely below readable and expect that people will spend half of the hour trying to decipher it and then pay the price (if they just can't otherwise) it is same as those gaming companies selling DLC that you need to finish the game.

Everything is fine if you do not deliberately try to arouse your readers and leave them wanting resolution.


However, saying "Sorry, but you need to pay is" nothing else than an insult. At least it sounds like that for me because I assume that the word "sorry" is when you are regretting something not when you deliberately do it.

I suppose in that situation you can say "Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for me) this forum does not allow me to post full resolution and I don't want to bother looking for other hosts, so everyone who wants full resolution here is the price.

This is in fact the way which I morally approve too because instead of relying on a copyright you are selling plain service where you perform certain work for a person who pays to you, like sending pictures to him. It becomes a normal one to one market relationship where you negotiate all terms of the deal.

All in all paywalling is shit,

If an artist needs money offer honest commissions for those who want a specific picture (its also advised you have no restrictions so you dont drive customers away)

>>10148

Yeah…
You are not even worth a serious
reply.

>>10145

Onix,
I am kinda speechless.
It's nice to see,
that even with us standing
on opposite sides of the fence,
we finally managed to find some
common ground.
Seriously.

Let's build on that.

Have a nice saturday.

It's been a little over a year since the last post, I contemplate how much has happened to this site for a stickied thread. Maybe no relation?