Time for some older stuff...

Great to see you back on here, had lost track of where you went after WWOEC went under.

Will you be uploading your stories on the /lit/ board as well? Those were great.

>>16350
Really nice pic. I actually had a Phineas and Ferb idea with you in mind; basically something like this, with Candace shitting in her backyard, but with Phineas and friends riding in some microscopic ship stuck in one of her turds as part of a zany adventure that took them through her body and ended with them leaving through her ass.

thanks dude

keep posting some shit, even old ones

>>16361

RandomRandom made fics?!?!?!?

Also, HEY, RandomRandom... Miss me? heh.

>>16363
Unless there was another guy with a similar name, yea. There was a Kim Possible story with her eating some of her own crap to test out a device Wade made for her. And he was the one behind those two Harry Potter stories, namely the one with Hermione, Ginny, and Luna shitting in a contest.

>>16365

Holy Hell. How did I NOT notice that, at all (If it was him)?

Hey RR can we expect to see anymore ladies from total drama?

Glad to see you took the suggestion RR :) It's good to see you here, we look forward to your amazing work as always! :p

Yeah, I did make some fics. I started a thread a while back featuring most of them. I have also been working on a Raven/Starfire one off and on. It primarily focused on Starfire being a futa and getting "tortured" by Raven early-on. Nothing too drastic. However, now it is starting to get to the more extreme stuff featuring scat. I'll probably get around to uploading it here soon when I finish the latest section.

Again, I will try to upload some new stuff off and on. My spare time is pretty limited.

(Another old one uploaded here)

Looks good! Thanks man!

Glad to see you back RR. I for one am happy to see you back. Would love to see links to all your stories too.

>>16370

Awesome dude.

Normally, at this point, I'd post the Wonder Loli scat pic you made me, but since this is YOUR thread, it's all in your court, dude. I will not steal your thunder. :)

Hey RR, weren't you working on a Jinx scat pic in the WWOEC days? Id love to see you finish that off one day.

>>16437

I suppose I can attempt to finish that one.

(Here's another scat version of a previous piece by me.)

>>16440
Wow! This is an amazing piece RR! Thank You! ^__^

I look forward to the Jinx piece if you decide to work on it :p

Speaking of the fics, wasn't there one you said you lost? I recall saying something a while back in /lit/ thread before it 404'd about having a file for a story of yours.

>>16467
I second wanting to see your fics

love your art btw

Anyways, RanRan, if you wanna slip some ideas by us, we'd be more than happy to hear you out. Sometimes I crave anime, sometimes I crave Western. :)

Hey RandomRandom, I THINK I have a hunch what the answer for this next question is... but I wanna shoot it by you, anyway (maybe you'll surprise me)...

Any thoughts on Sticks the Badger from Sonic Boom?

>>16571
I have a ton of ideas, but not a lot of time. I'm currently working on Jinx from Teen Titans and I will try to finish it tomorrow. As for a possible idea I have been considering: Artemis from Young Justice. (Season 3 coming soon!) I kind of want to keep the details under wraps because I want to surprise people.

>>16583
Unfortunately, I am going to stick to characters I know pretty well for now. I appreciate the suggestion though.

try You're Under Arrest with Miyuki Kobayakawa and Natsumi Tsujimoto they have no scat pics yet any body want to try go head you would be my hero

Jinx as requested.

Maybe make another Terra scat pic if you want. Or maybe Daphne Blake from Scooby Doo.

Great work RR! In my opinion, you make the best western scat art. Glad to have you here on Gurochan.

I love Terra. Any Terra scat pic??

Have you considered trying something with desperation? I'd love to see your take on a girl struggling to hold back a monster turd.

>>16614
:o Made me speechless! Thanks RR!

Fantastic! I am glad to see you have an outlet here on Gurochan been following your art since you started and its awesome!

Can I request a scat blowjob? Example: Starfire sucking on Ravens long turd while still in her ass or something. I love kinky ideas with an already massively kinky fetish!

how about hyperscat?

>>16614

Fucking AWESOME! Love the shape of Jynx's ass, in this one, along with the "clay-like" consistency of her shit (that on-ground piece, half-way up).

>>16637

He's done it, but roles switched.

Hey RR could you try doing a marceline or beth tezuka scat pic THAT WOULD AWESOME AND WORTH IT they're both hot in my standards

Hey RR, Could you do Powergirl and Wonder Woman pooping together?

A lot of requests here. Sadly, I can't say if I will get to any of them any time soon. I am currently working on a couple of new scat-oriented pieces though.

(Older Terra pic uploaded)

>>16651

Eh, fucking, gonna post the Wonder Loli pic (which I STILL love, btw).

Bombs AWAY (figuratively. lol)!!

>>16655

"Fucking" was SUPPOSED to be "Fuck it"... ugh.

>>16651
Really? Scat oriented? I'm getting really excited for that...

Any new scat pics from RR is enough to be hype! Doesn't matter if you can do requests or not, just keep the chocolate factory in business.

>>16614
I just saw this at the booru

PLEASE do more jynx as you do with raven and starfire

Its fucking rare to see this stuff

>>16346
I was wondering RR have you heard of Abby archer from grossology its made by the same people who made 6teen I was wondering if you make a scat pic of her just saying...

>>16346
I was wondering RR have you heard of Abby archer from grossology its made by the same people who made 6teen I was wondering if you make a scat pic of her just saying...

Hay RR, you could take that recent non-scat image you put up on palcomix "Nipple don't work that way" and maybe make it nipple scat? I can see that you already find nipple penetration weird but which is fine. It would just be another layer of a spicy meme. But seriously as weird as it sounds I'd ready love it if you do actually make it.

>>16728
As interesting an idea as that sounds, I'm not sure if I ready to be known as the guy who drew Raven and Starfire with shitting nipples. I'll think about it .

I was wondering if you could give us a hint on how the scat pics look like?

>>16733
1.) Star Butterfly just letting it go outside because she is unaware that this isn't normal on Earth.

2.) Isabella having an emergency and trying to hide from her friends.

3.) A random request.

Just so you know, we all appreciate what you're doing and I personally don't want you to feel pressured by all of the requests and such you're receiving.

>>16731

My dude, DON'T do the shitting dicknipples. You're a treasure, and I'd hate to lose you, like Suni "methodically" decided to do, after "Gas ze chus" and "Pony making teh poops".

Can we get more Loli scat? Seems rare :p

NOW THATS ONE COOL ART PICS YOU GOT THERE RR I THINK I MIGHT DIE OF MASTURBATION. Also be careful for some anonymous here tend to just order artist around so be weary of that Also they can be haters too

>>16734
I second this guy's second request with Isabella.

>>16756
I just realized I replied to the fucking artist and this stuff is actually in the works. Holy fuck I'm retarded but ALSO very happy.

Hey, RR, would you ever consider doing any farting related content Or edits to your other images so it involves it? You could keep pee in there to so it becomes a pee fart too, I would love to see something like that from you one day :)

Here is a request for you if you feel up to it. Dipper feeding Pasifica his shit. she would be a prissy thing and bitch about it the whole time shes gulping down a thick log. maybe she has to do it to make up for all her bad behavior.

If I'm allowed to make a humble request, how about Abby taking a dump while Ty watches? They are from the cartoon show called "Grossology" and the art style is the same as most of the stuff you've drawn already, RR.

I was thinking the scene could go 1 of 2 ways:
Either Ty gets a hold of the ray gun Lance Boil used in the episode "When Ya Gotta Go" to make anyone hit by it get diarrhea, with Ty using it on Abby for his own amusement.
Or,
Ty convinces Abby to take a dump in front of him for the purpose of studying the process of defecation, as the show they are on is about learning various gross bodily functions and other similar things.

If anyone reading this has not seen that episode I mentioned, go check it out right now! It has lots of desperation, stomach aches/grumbling, farting (both regular and toilet farts), and even pooping sounds from Abby!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO4D8N1dEMc

>>16760
I agree with your opinion and at least there are people here who remember that episode of grossology

>>16760
>>16761

I'm honestly just surprised nobody's done anything SOONER with Abby from Grossology.

>>16770
I'm just waiting for the call if RR will make her.

>>16770
I'm just waiting for the call if RR will make her.

Does anyone know if there is some kind of gallery for western scat art (like pixiv) where i can browse this kind of stuff from all different artists?

Does anyone know if there is some kind of gallery for western scat art (like pixiv) where i can browse this kind of stuff from all different artists?

Isabella is cute as hell. You can just tell she's showing off for Phineas.

My first upload here. I'm afraid because I don't want anyone attacking me for my.. uh, tastes.

>>16814
I'm sorry but this is a thread for RR Scat art so you're probably going to have to delete that and upload it somewhere else.

>>16814

I gotta agree with what >>16815 said... HOWEVER, I do like what you did. We rarely if EVER attack anyone here. We're pretty chillaxed (usually).

>>16814
Um I don't want to be rude but you can. Make your ow. Western scat topic with artists you know,and scat pics made by them but this ones for RR.

>>16814
Glad to see you post here! Been a fan for quite some time.

>>16814
I don't really mind. It's an open board, and I will only update occasionally anyway.

Work has been exhausting for me this past week and it's going to be a bit before I get a break to finish something.

>>16820
lol That's not me

I wonder if your done with your board exam Mr. Tenuous just saying for a concerned fan of yours

Hey RR. It's cool if you don't currently have the time to cater and/or spoonfeed a longtime fan. but I was wondering what software you use and how your drawing process is usually like. Also, could you possibly make some dirty edits of a few of your recentmost PPG pictures? I just figured I'd ask since you say they take little effort and time. I'm a fucking lazy inconsiderate asshole if you didn't figure it out by now, sorry RanRan.

Would it be possible for someone to post Winx Club scat porn? Preferably with some eating. My favorites are Flora and Tecna, but others would be cool too.

Wow this page is quiet I wonder if anyone's here?


BUMP! FOR MOTIVATION

>>16873
we scared him away with our incessant requests

Or he got burned out cuz I saw in his palcomix account there was a lot of art he made like 9 pics and he said he was going to work hard until he got exhausted
Maybe he's just getting a bit of R&R

Or he got burned out cuz I saw in his palcomix account there was a lot of art he made like 9 pics and he said he was going to work hard until he got exhausted
Maybe he's just getting a bit of R&R

I'm still here. Work has been sucking my life away for the moment. If it is any consolation, I have been reading the requests and I have been working on one off and on. Abby Archer from Grossology.

Here's a quick scat version of a recent pic by me of Pacifica from Gravity Falls.

Awesome pasifica pic. shes super sexy and i can only imagine dipper about to take a bite.

>>16901
if it isnt too personal, what is your work? don't have to be specific, but i am interested in what kills the artist's soul.

>>16901
Yes, so much YES!
This is my fav RR pic btw

ETA for that isabella piece?

>>16912
How about right now!

---

And if I may make a request of everyone here. Can we avoid uploading my scat content to places like paheal? I would appreciate it since it seems to generate a strong negative reaction from most people there. The reason I made this thread was to keep it contained in a place that wouldn't mind this sort of stuff. Obviously I can't stop anyone after it is uploaded here, but it would go a long way towards keeping most people happy. It would certainly make me less hesitant to make this sort of stuff.

hot damn. girl really needed to go. awesome picture dude.

>>16921

Frankly, fuck Paheal.... so wish granted. I won't post anything there (then again, I never did). ;)

RR, Scatboru is such a place to post. It is centered on it. In fact, most of your work is on there as a way of preserving your past work.

Your right RR I have seen a lot of negative reviews in paheal and lots of rude comments man people don't just respect on what you do

People at rule 34 paheal such huge hypocrites in my opinion. Gore and such is ok to them yet scat gets them "triggered". I decided to leave Rule 34 because of it to find "greener pastures". For a time, I was writing scat fiction. I was thinking of making a Pokemon scatfic featuring Ash's mother when I lost my password and email account. For a while, I didn't know what to do. One day, I found a place called Scatboru, which centered around scat art with no persecution. It was in it's infancy when I joined it and decided to put scat art of artists that were not around anymore like Malachi.

On one hand, I would say just ignore the idiots on Paheal, but at the same time I can understand wanting feedback and getting discouraged when nothing but idiots who can't even actually articulate something like criticism come in and just say "I hate this disgusting shit" despite literally having to be braindead to not see the scat from the thumbnail alone.

Something to consider, you should request that your works (including the non-scat ones) be removed from Paheal and include yourself in the list of disallowed artists. If the people there can't appreciate the scat works, then they don't deserve to see the vanilla/futa stuff either.

The reason people on most boards and forums forbid scat is that it is both fringe and cringe, just like furry and guro. Ostensibly, it evokes the strongest secondhand embarrassment and disgust among the three, with regards to people who do not possess the paraphilia in question. It's the bottom bitch of vomit-inducing fetishes.

Paheal receives searches from herds of meatheaded normies inquiring after vanilla porn of a specific cartoon character. The character is the emphasis, not the fetishist fantasy in which they are portrayal. Imagine the exasperation when dozens of unwitting pedophiles in search of images of young Pacifica are assaulted by the sight of her prairie-dogging a huge log of shit.

We have more than enough space to share our sparse smattering of content by huddling around our existing circles anyway, so I see no reason that we can't remain, effectively, in internet exile from other communities of perverts. To force the issue and flaunt shit pictures where they aren't wanted would be tard rage. Or just retarded.

In other words, just do what >>16921 says.

However, trolls are often responsible for sharing scat pictures as bait, so it's not always a dumbass with good intentions.

Requesting Lily Loud doing a poo poo

>>16953

Ok, I can't fully speak for RR... but I'm PRETTY sure he won't do toddlercon.

What about Lori loud she's kinda cute

>>16960

Considering he's done plenty of teenagers and lolis, I have no doubt that he'd happily do it, when he had the chance... but I'm STILL not going to speak for him, regardless of my hypothetical answer.

>>16953
Sick bastard.

>>16953 Are you that person who kept requesting for Tommy Pickles? If so, then take it elsewhere.

No scat in this one, just a young volunteer helping a desperate guy relieve his bladder. Probably on the edge of relevant for this thread.

I was messing around in paint, trying out some new things, and out this came. Took a little over an hour to complete this. Not too bad imo.

Caitlyn might just be my favorite when it comes to your art. An idea for a naughty pic could be Caitlyn pissing into some cups and serving it to unsuspecting customers, after all she does work a lemonade store right?

>>16976
Not bad and that's pretty awesome painting ya got their RR

>>16978
>>16976
Love Caitlin! RR, have you ever considered doing any farting images? Specifically Caitlin or an edit?

There was a part in the show where she actually farted and pee farted on the toilet in one scene, I would love to see your take on those scenes, the pee fart one preferably :p

>>16976

An employee of a Lemonade Kiosk... ingesting some "lemonade". lol ;)

I'm I remember correctly RR you were planning on making a star butterfly scat pic? I wonder if its almost done or on hiatus... Just wanted to know

>>17008

I won't lie, that would be HILARIOUSLY brilliant!

Hey, RR, could you please make some Winx Club scat porn, of Flora and/or Tecna (or maybe Bloom)? Preferably with some eating.

Requesting Lila Sawyer dropping her business.

Could you make some scat of yandere chan from yandere simulator

Could you make some scat of yandere chan from yandere simulator

Bumping this for motivation. GO RR YOU CAN DO IT!!!

Aw man it became silent BUMP AGAIN FOR MOTIVATION

Please stop, RR will return when he does.

IS there any complete Rar file or other archive of RR's stuff out there?
Love the art style and would love to see something like that.

http://xbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=672897 could u maby make a scar edit of this pls it just looks like it wants to be a scar version

Maybe* and scat*

>>17175
Second.

somefhing new

>>17172
I will probably upload an updated archive sometime here in May.

>>17175
I'm working on some new, non-scat stuff right now, however I might be able to fit this in.


Just a quick update: I do plan on getting around to the one of Star Butterfly right after I upload a new set I am working on to my thread here in a few days. I also have the basic line-art done for Abby Archer. After that, anything is possible. I usually don't like to set time-tables because I like to take breaks sporadically.

Ok, since it's been about a week, I'll bump this up. :)

Well he DID say he was making non scat related art. Check on his palcomix account I saw three pics involving raven from justice league vs teen Titans. Maybe he has more soon before he finishes both the star butterfly and Abby archer pics

I'm sorry to say that it might be a bit longer. I've been throwing 100% effort into my most recent stuff and also putting myself outside of my comfort zone. Instead of taking hours to finish something, it can take the better part of a day. Right now, I am working on a few more non-scat things. Some of them are requests from /aco/.

However, I will try to finish a scat image here very soon. Please be patient.

>>17306

We'll be patient, RR. I just wanted to bump this, weekly/semi-weekly: Nothing more.

I was wondering RR. What was your first website where you posted your first pic
Because i saw your art come out of rule 34 but then I saw your art pop up it different websites I was wondering where did you start?

Here is Star doing something in a place she doesn't know she shouldn't be doing said something. It was a fairly quick one, and I feel it is a little "weaker" when compared to some of my other work. I didn't want to go too overboard on it, so it is fairly simplistic.

---

>>17380
I was mainly posting on the wwoec forum. With that gone, I'm over on the palcomix forum. It's fairly low traffic though, so I'm considering alternatives.

I've been looking at tumblr, but I know I would have to walk a tightrope to do that when it comes to content.

Nice star picture. i love the fact that shes somewhat annoyed by his question. ahhhh different cultures. Heres a request for you. marco feeding star his shit while being super embarrassed about it while star is thinking about how they do this on mewnie all the time so why is he embarrassed?

Could you do an edit for your latest candace and stacy picture? Also, do you actually use MSP to make your work or were you making a funny?

>>17393
you could try pixiv

>>17393
I was going to upload the full scale version to show you that it is, indeed, drawn in MSP. However, I guess this site doesn't want to support images at a 8209 x 7669 resolution. Here is a sample of the full scale instead.

>>17401
Was going to say this. Even if you just do what KSA has been doing and mostly using pixiv as a dumping ground (ha ha), it would at least allow you the least amount of restriction given how tumblr is shitting on anyone who does loli, and places like Hentai foundry are picky as fuck about who they accept, and don't allow loli anymore (at least nothing overtly loli).

I wonder why wwoec died? Any who what are you planning on making after this anyway RR?

>>17393

You should SO try Pixiv, like Orph said here >>17410

>>17393

As for the pic being weaker... I don't disagree, but what do you think can be done to make the pics impact stronger? Maybe a smaller panel showing Star from the front (full-body, or bust-up to show her face?)?

Can we get more Gwen from Ben 10 scat/pee/fart please RR? She hardly gets that kind of treatment from artists, which is a shame :(

I know you've done one scat pic of her already, just wondering if you could do a few more please? Maybe a straight up using a toilet one or something :p

Hey, somebody on Palcomix tell RR that Gurochan is back up! X)

I would love to see more scat/efro artwork of the girls from All Grown Up, this pic is pretty much all there is out there.

>>17422
This, I'd love to see some scat related Gwen lewds, not into fart or pee though, but she taking a huge dump outdoors with that big ass of hers while teasing the viewer would be great!

This picture desperately needs to be altered, RR!

>>17561


... is anyone actually going to TELL RR, on Palcomix, that GChan is back up?!?!?!?!?

>>17569
I'm sure he already knows. He's probably just taking a break, give it another week.

Hes on hiatus right now so better off waiting. plus if you guys keep pressuring him hes gonna quit on this and then we ll be back scrapping across the internet to find a decent scat porn

>>17572

Hey, I'm not "pushing" anything onto RR. Hell, for a while we were good friends (until wwoec died, and I just didn't have the drive to make an account on Palcomix).

The only thing I'm pushing is somebody to check up on him, and that's that: If he's on hiatus, then he's on hiatus. Shouting for him to do things won't make him end his hiatus faster (and even that, that's pretty damn wrong thinking that that WOULD [which it wouldn't] make him end his hiatus faster).

>>17572
>>17579
Quit it, you two.

>>17580

Uhm... we're not arguing?

Well anyway... atleast we got a plan B. RR states that he will use his palcomix as a way to communicate to us if he has a scat pic available and he lljust post it to scatbooru so no worries

>>17609

Ok. Cool. That's all I needed to know. Thank you. :)

Man this has been silent for awhile i wonder if its ever coming back

>>17631
It's only been a month since he dropped the Star pic, geez.

>>17633

I agree. I mean, I have ADD, and even I have a better sense of patience.

man he must have alot of things on his mind. it feels like hes like going through something i guess?

I've just been picking up more hours at work recently. Please be patient, I'm going to have some time off coming up her soon.

>>17656
Please some scat Gwen
Also don't rush, it's nice to see you're still around

Not bad it actually does almost look like RR but the peeing looks a bit of in position just my opinion

While we're waiting for RR to return I made an edit to his latest Jinx piece to create a sort of 4 page CG set. I really love Jinx (she's my fave TT girl) and this image RR made of her is just awesome! Would totally love for him to do more Scat/WS of her. Really sorry if I'm not allowed to post these here :p

Page 1...

Page 2, I actually had a bit of a struggle to create a fart that would fit RR's art style, considering he actually doesn't do farts so I'm unsure. I would be very interested to know/see how RR would handle farts for his style or for this particular scenario though?...

Page 3...

Page 4.

>>17790

Well, I'm sure anybody whose complained that farts don't have a color to them would be pleased (especially since you made Jinx's a little wet. ;) ).

>>17788
>>17790
>>17791
>>17792
Hey thats pretty good including the fart plus it bumped the thread up

i wonder if RR does anime pics?

>>17841

He's done a few anime pics, but he's, afaik, done one that's scat: It's of Videl from DBZ.

wellits been like a month or 2 so itlooks like RR is really busy huh?

>>18064
Or quit. Or dead.

Stop being pushy. Bump the thread so it doesn't die and let RR get on with his work. Being pushy gets us nowhere and definitely won't make anything happen faster.

>>18120

^^ VERY MUCH THIS!

RanRan usually has a lot on his plate... a little something called "Life". When he posts, he posts. Being pushy or going all "The thread is dead" isn't going to help anyone or anything. This isn't a gaming forum.

>>17402
>MSpaint is dead on the newer OS
Man, that's just crazy to think, given how the program is old as hell.

bump, so that the thread doesn't get deleted.



It has been a while but I'm not complaining. He'll be back. I just hope things are working out for him. I truly love RR's art, both the usual and scat related. He did so many pics of characters I like (and you do too!) that we can never sing enough praises to him. From the Powerpuff Girls to the Teen Titans and Gwen & Ben, he has delivered an amazing amount of content. I'm certain many boys were first introduced to a special hunger and desire to kneel and open their mouths after seeing his work, especially when it comes to newish characters like Gwen or Pacifica.



And speaking of new stuff, I'm kinda surprised there hasn't been many scat pictures of Star Butterfly or TLH. It's to be expected boys and men want to worship Star Butterfly, kiss her feet and beg her to piss and shit on them or in their mouths, but I'm amazed TLH girls haven't gotten that special humble attention. We've even seen Lynn shitting on the toilet, which was a wonderful mouth-watering scene. An orgasm is inevitable after witnessing such a beautiful tomboy doing something so private.



Anyway, a bump has been made.

>>18609





... There's scat from The Loud House (not a lot, though)... you just have to look for it (hint: check The Loud Booru).



Besides, if you want more Star Butterfly scat and The Loud House Scat... you could always, oh, I dunno... WRITE SOME FICS, PUNCHY!!!!!!

>>18620



Only theoretically. I'm working insane hours at an insane job, so when I get home I'm wholly worthless. Maybe someday.



Either way we should be glad we get any content at all. I know about the Booru though.

>>18632



I said what I said as an aggressive jab. I've grown past you. You'll never do anything written.

Bump



Wonder how RR is doing

>>18641

Autism

>>18851



>The most overused "insult" for the past 2 years that everybody on the internet uses.




Get new material, something that has ACTUAL impact.

guys...



RR art thread, not your personal salt thread.

Let's now discuss the possibility that RR actually lives in England and has been arrested for underage drawings.

>>18915

What? Gtfo of here! Talking about that shit, if you don't like it then leave!

>>18915

What an ignorant deduction you have there.

>>18915

Please delete this post, it's terrible.

>>18915

No

>>18915



That's kind of a funny idea. In reality, I have just been busy with work this summer. I'll eventually get back in the mood again and make some new stuff as I always do.

Wow... well THAT came outa nowhere. Anywho what work do you do anyway rr

>>18924

Good to hear from you again RR!

>>18924

Is there a place we can download all your previous material?

I would love an RR archive, scat and non-scat pictures

>>18924

Make a patreon fuckface

>>19002

I'm making one on Sadpanda

>>19092

lemme know when you're done :)

>>19091



Yeah, because CLEARLY calling the artist "fuckface" is gonna get you what you want!

>>19098



well duh obviously

/s

>>19106

Don't be a dick.

bumb

kerbump

Waiting for random to post since he's back from hiatus

RR you should have discord account just in case you go lost from here