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    How would you break it to your SO you're into this shit, especially if you fantasize about her being in situations? Do I just keep quiet about it? Couldn't risk her breaking up with me or some shit
    10 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>9773
    It looks like you are applying ideology of those MGTOW women haters you find on YouTube. but you cannot be any more wrong with your assumptions about me.
    I do not even slightly blame women for any of those things you mentioned here. In fact, it is more like the total opposite.
    The reason why I see women as a lesser human then men is because the definition of human is the opposite of the animal. (even if technically humans are animals.)
    Women are always closer to nature than men. that is the pretty obvious well-known fact which includes even animals while men are more independent abstract entities who are way less connected with nature than women who live in their own world with their own meaning doing things that from the female perspective makes totally no sense.
    And that is precisely what it means to be human.

    Whether you are infantile strong or weak or whatever else does not matter it is about how far away you moved from nature and your evolutionary purpose of babymaking.


    And while you seemingly object to wahst I say about women you still mentioned one thing
    >>You're not able to understand (or at least you haven't thought deeply and honestly about) the social pressures that force women into this role.


    Comment too long, view post No.9778 to see the full comment.
    >>
    >>9778
    >>the definition of human is the opposite of the animal. (even if technically humans are animals.)

    ….
    WHAT DID YOU SMOKE
    >>
    >>9781
    Nothing, I just sometimes use my brain instead of believing everything I am told by society. Maybe you could also try using it sometimes for purposes not intended by evolution but that will likely lead to termination of your genes. LOL
    >>
    >>9778
    >unless you mean that I will drive women from gurochan

    …Yes. Yes that's what I mean.
    >>
    >>9830
    In that case I take it as serious argument. Maybe such kind of discussions will not happen in future.

    There is no good way to start a thread like this. I like to think my threads are, hopefully, asking existentional and philosophical questions worth answering. But what can I wrote, which won't end up pretentious and overdone to death?
    We're all redundant.

    How do you deal with loss? With pain? With anger?

    With the past?

    I've tried denial, and it was working like a charm for almost 20 years. But the fucking mask is cracking as I write this shit down.

    How to find peace with yourself? Maybe you never needed that and you re accepting yourself for who you are?
    2 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>9794
    Man, if life was a game, I would love for you to be the final boss (no sarcasm!). That kill would be hella satisfying. I like how strongly I disagree with your ideology, and I love how much you believe in it. Imagine Fallout 2/New Vegaslike (SPEECH 100) showdown!

    If this isn't obvious, you are a very smart guy. But you are wrong about me. Also you went way out off topic.
    How do you deal with pain? With bad thoughts? I don't believe you never experienced those. I don't need patronizing advices from egocentric sociopath. I'm one myself. I like "recipe for happiness", but it's just poetry, not universal truth.

    ALTHOUGH! If in future you'll manage to achieve immortality, forget what I've wrote above, because I'll be very interested in siding with ya, my dear, dear friend!


    >>9795
    I like you.
    >>
    >>9799
    How do you deal with loss? (I edited it out somehow:/)
    >>
    >>9799
    You know when you kill the last boss the game usually ends ;)

    I do not really have anything much to lose and I was still lucky enough not to lose anything important yet, and not even experience any significant pain.(unless we count in my acute appendicitis that hurt like hell. LOL)
    Of course, it will happen eventually but it is hard to tell now how I will deal with that then. Maybe it will not be that horrible because when you lose something you gain more freedom.

    So what I said before, is pretty relevant to how I deal with loss. I understand that losing something also gives me something back because every "asset" is also "liability". so in those situations, my thoughts to revolve around the plans how I will move forward and will be able to do things that I could not do before because of that thing I lost.
    If I think about the situation when I lose everything completely where I will be sure that I have no future anymore I will have to end my life with something resembling a suicide in some fun way. sometimes I even envy people whose life was not as good as mine, because the fact that it is pretty good, makes me value it so much that I cannot do things I would love to do.


    My usual problem is not so much losing something but the perspective of such loss happening in the near future.
    waiting for a loss is worse than the loss itself because you can't do anything at all, neither you can prevent loss neither you can move forward from that.
    It happened to me a few times on a medium scale, but by some miracle, everything resolved somehow.
    In those situations, I was under pretty big stress because of my inability to do anything at all. It is neither pain or bad thoughts it is the situation when you are just stuck, same as if you are tied and cannot move. And this is the worst thing I ever experienced. I think it is depression. I could even fell how my body is breaking down at that time.
    >>
    >because the fact that it is pretty good, makes me value it so much that I cannot do things I would love to do.

    Like?
    >>
    >>9819
    this song is pretty relevant here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OdRlMnnmn4

    But it cannot be described in some list of things I want to do in life, it is how I am forced to behave.

    If for example, someone hurts me I can't kill that person or even respond in any meaningful way. I have to act civilized, but if I was about to die anyone who will show even slightest disrespect would immediately die.

    You know those degenerates whom you can find on the street where if you say something wrong to them you will typically end dead.

    also, I could approach women more easily because I would not care about damaging my social status So I could act like a dick without any fear. now I can't just approach a woman on the street and say something "hey you look sexy let's go fuck" or grab her but or tits or do other stuff which is inappropriate but whats degenerates do without any fear and actually have good success.

    So if my life was about to end I would act like a typical sociopath. I may end in jail or get killed but who cares if my life is not even worth dime, engaging in the fight with police is also one of the fun things to do. (like playing GTA in the real-life LOL.)

    Comment too long, view post No.9820 to see the full comment.

    This thread should serve the purpose of
    discussing/comparing the online
    guro-community with other fetish-communities.
    21 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >> 9203

    >> […] your customers like to pay insane money,

    play secret society and
    pretend to do decadent things[…]

    This is actually hitting the nail.
    That's probably 'their' game. U know…
    Maybe I should reconsider calling you
    dumb next time. My apologies.

    I might add to your observation,
    that separating themselves, leveraging

    Comment too long, view post No.9204 to see the full comment.
    >>
    At the end… All I want to do is:
    Have fun,
    Make cool stuff,
    get it done.

    This is my only drive.

    All the things that are neccessary
    to achieve above mentioned 'goals',
    honestly, they just SUCK.
    And if it wasn't for the greater good,
    I would HATE wrapping my head around
    marketing, money, security, organization,

    Comment too long, view post No.9205 to see the full comment.
    >>
    >>9201
    >If people REALLY consider doing bad things in RL, ostracizing them is the very first thing I would do to them. -as a starter. I would even push it further as to hunt them down like animals, doing to them, what they consider doing to others.

    Certainly we should do whatever it takes to stop people from hurting each other. If that means putting dangerous people in prison, then so be it, but let's not take half measures which only make us feel better without actually protecting anyone.

    Sure we say that we'll hunt down the dangerous people, but chances are slim that we'd actually do it. When we say we'll ostracize them for starters, what we probably really mean is that we'll only ostracize them, and the bit about hunting them down is just a fantasy. If ostracizing them is all that we do, then it's far worse than doing nothing. What we've done is left them alone to make their plans with no social distractions and no one to tell them that they shouldn't hurt people.
    >>
    >>
    Lmao B.B. everything you post I read in my "poetry voice" because of all the line breaks

    I view Gurochan and similar webs, because im into castration/genital mutilation kinda stuff, and there is a big variety of fetish here, most of them are on the serious side of horror.

    Its been years now and i never thought about it as anything bad really, but recently im starting to think, that this is all really sick.
    "if you dont like it, go somewhere else"
    some might say.
    But the point is, i do like it, a lot.
    in fact, this is a rare and also addicting mind stimulation, that you can never get in real life, and looking back, i rejected sex just to masturbate (my poor gf) many times, because this is so strong.

    I skip tons of beheadings, amputees, cannibalism, etc, even minors somethimes, on the way to my thing, just like you do.

    I judge no one, but i call for your thoughts and opinions, are you sometimes look at what brings you to pleasure, and think "this is sick, i get aroused by some really sick shit, how did it come to this?"
    Do you ever try to masturbate to 'normal' kind of porn even though there is for sure better content on the "heavier" sites? if its a yes than why?
    Have you ever tried to stop consuming your 'guro' porn completely? how did it go?

    Comment too long, view post No.6353 to see the full comment.
    40 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>8822
    Hookers also have phones.
    >>
    >>8823
    That is diffrent issue. Sure they will be able to track her phone, but if you have no pone yourself there is nothing to match it.

    While if you also have your phone in the pocket, you can be identified pretty much instantly even if you leave no other evidence.
    Although i am not sure if police is using that kind of technology.
    >>
    >>8827
    Doesn't matter. They'll know she got killed by a client and they'll know where she got killed to an extent. You can plan around this if you know what you're doing, but clearly the guy who first asked is clueless.
    >>
    >>8828
    >.You can plan around this if you know what you're doing, but clearly the guy who first asked is clueless.

    I totally agree.
    >>
    Why kill hookers? It's like every serial killer clishe. IRL they have buff bodyguards with guns. And those scare tough pimps have structures and connections. You don't want to start with this shit.You need to level up first. You want to start with some rich fuckas instead. Pigs will think it was robbery, and you will earn some extra cash! Just find local controversial douchebag living 60 miles from you, and get dat biatch.
    Biggest concern is the body. No body-no murdah, bois. The best way to hide bdi\\\eas as I've read in A\\a[]__=I=+;;\-\!!\\\s+ C3c…

    Oh wait, back to topic!

    Nothing is sick. It's all cool. It's your fantasy. Your body. Your universe. It's ok. You're ok. That's ok. (I love that quotte)
    Just don't hurt other beings if you don't have to.

    How would you train/torture an idol or a dancer? I mean, if you have a young girl, and you have to train her to sing/dance/smile perfectly, but you could abuse of her and break her mind, what kind of awful and painful training would you elaborate? (it also works for a boy one idk)
    >>
    Well not my style (I abhor making her smile, I want to hear her screaming), but ig conventional torture is the answer?

    Maybe you're worried about leaving marks or damaging her dancing capabilities. Electricity isn't my favorite brand of torture but it might suffice. That or simple slappings, pink belly and spankings are dank.

    False hope is another nifty thing. Or carrot and a stick.
    >>
    What kind of girl or what kind of torture you can use to make her smile ?
    LOL
    Torture is not gonna improve her signing or dancing.


    But in that situation I woud use some relatively mild torture methods that leave no damage and no long lasting pain.

    So I woud will her with enema and make her wear butt plug.

    I woud putt catheter in her pee hole and not let her pee until she finishes her lesson.

    I woud stick needles in her breasts as punishment for making mistakes.


    Comment too long, view post No.8683 to see the full comment.
    >>
    My idea is to circumcise the girl clit hood and tie a rope to her clit.

    But first of all the circumcision had to be public in front of her fellow girl and boy friends so that she will be obedient.
    >>
    >>
    Fun fact:

    You can't imagine any new form of torture to force dat sweet, sweet, innocent girl to do this dancing shit, that momma of her didn't tried before. You know, to make that lazy fucking little pig to behave like a lade I expect you to be.
    It's dark… Yet it's perfectly fine in 1st world. GG.





    Why am I such a buzzkill?

    Getting the following error when trying to post:

    "Failed to resize image! Details: gm convert: iCCP: CRC error (/tmp/php6x9OIX)."

    Tried from computer and phone.
    Not seeing anywhere that specifies a required image size, or I would resize it myself. Tried it at 80% scale too.
    >>
    Bump. Can anyone from the site take a look at this error? I have things I want to post.
    >>
    It may be hard to get site admins attention here.

    But considering your error it looks like a problem with your picture or your way of uploading it as there is "CRC error" mentioned which indicates some damage.

    Maybe you could upload this picture to another file host for testing.
    for example to https://openload.co/

    what does it mean when i get the eroor "you didnt make a post"? Trying to post a gif i made but i keep getting that error.

    Firstly, Sorry if that discussion have been dealt before.

    Title. Which one do you like more? Which one is hotter do you think? What are your general opinions?
    3 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>9759
    I think if I let myself indulge in the lustful feelings I get from sadness mixed with sexual pleasure, I might actually like it, but I kind of prevent myself from indulging since I just feel it's wrong lol and hold the characters and the story to some form of purity.

    Do you happen to know any examples of stories, movies or any fiction that includes guro?
    >>
    >>9759
    Yes, there's definitely something erotic about the bittersweet aspect of snuffing a character that you've grown to love. I've played a bit with that in my story, like in chapter 4, "Bittersweet", and perhaps to a lesser extent with the twins in chapters 7-10. But I haven't committed to doing that fully (yet). Even I struggle with making bad things happen to my readers' favourite characters, even though some are egging me on to do so lol.

    >>9761
    Ah! the old "It's nice, but I don't like it" thing!

    I'm thinking something like TSade's "Dolcett Girls" is probably a kind of middle ground. It' a solid story with a decent amount of guro included.
    >>
    >>9757
    I second that.
    if story is too serious and makes me attached to its characters it turns into tragedy not guro.
    But also I want to see decent plot in the story as well. if story is just an alphabet soup it is not fun to read either unless it is very short.

    the best solution is when story is based on some unconventional motives to drive its plot. something to show it on another angle to prevent turning it into tragedy for example presenting it from the perspective of some other character. or another way is when guro is not really the topic of the story but just a thing to spice it, or when its main characters do not die.

    If story is actual plain tragedy after all for me it leave no other choice but just avoiding falling in love with its characters or treating it just as meaningless work of fiction. but this kind of approach takes away lost of pleasure which I could have if I could get fully immersed into the story.
    >>
    >>9759
    I suspect that you are a masochist then ;)
    >>
    >>9764

    Yeah, I guess I'm kinda masochist when it's movies, comics, animations, or stories etc. I like tragedy stories :D

    Well, I just find it deeper I think. Same thing happens for normal porn too. When I'm reading a comic or just watching a normal porn, it gives me more pleasure when I'm attached to the characters and they are familiar instead of some random people.

    (I'm that 9754 and 9759 btw)

    what is that you find of exciting or sexy on gore? why do you like it? just that,thanks for your answers
    >>
    Do we really need yet ANOTHER thread about this overdone topic?

    Hello everyone, I was seeking for advise, in the past I've made a lot of drawn commissions about my OCs ending up in all kind of terrible situations, which is something I really enjoy, especially giving the artist some freedom about what happens to them so they can come up with their own Idea, this is even hotter :)

    Lately I started wondering about something new, I love when it's a female "aggressor", and I was linked a youtube series made by a youtuber named Reitanna "Diary of a serial killer" which is about a serial killer describing the various murders of her "career". I loved one of the episodes where the victims matched my interests, and I was thinking to commission a voice actress that could be interested in doing a similar story where she'd voice a killer describing how they killed my ocs as victims. Ideally I'd give her freedom to create the story and do something she likes, but I understand it would mean more work for her and I could come up with something myself if she prefers.

    My question was just the following, do you know anyone that could potentially be interested in doing such a project ? I've started to look into amateur voice actresses who do commissions, but I'd rather find one with an interest in guro to begin with. If you've ever met someone who did similar things, or if you know of another place where I could look for someone interested in both gore and voice acting, I'd love to hear about them :)
    (picture is one of the many previously mentioned commissions by an artist named scvmmy on da :) )

    I believe that the main reason for this is the constant death and ressurection of this site over the years. It always took a bit of a time to get Gurochan up and running again, but the cost of this was a slightly changed adress.
    Now it feels like there's only 10 new posts on the whole site per day.
    Is there anything that can be done to change it and bring more people here?
    16 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>9708
    Guro is larger than you think, especially if you open up to soft core guro like snuff, bloodplay. Deciding there arent enough people im a community to sustain it is just giving up on improving things before trying.

    Not that I havent given up myself, but not out of the thought that theres just not enough guro fans.

    If I cant get my mods to post, then I can extrapolate that others arent posting for similar reasons. (Not that I need to, Ive asked.)

    I didnt say anything about banning mean comments, youre all free to talk how youd like, but artists that get interacted with tend to stick around. If theyre positive interactions, the tendency is even higher.

    I havent seen many threads that end on "wow this was great, will you do more?"
    >>
    Other thing to note is that this place could potentially serve as one of the safe havens for guro artists, provided theres a way to archive their threads in case of yet another site issue. For example theres a lot of 3d CGI snuff artists on Deviantart who are basically living on borrowed time and occasionally some of the bigger ones get permabanned. I know artists like Vico444 migrated to exhentai but now that site is gone too. Biggest problem is Gurochan having a bit of reputation for performance issues so if we solve that either by fixing them or having a system of caching or preserving artist threads, then all this place needs is a bit of advertisement that Gurochan is online again and you can post your stuff here.
    >>
    >>9716
    First, I have to say thank you for all the work you are doing here (even if you seem to dislike me to some extent)
    It seems that this site is not really going to improve that much if the situation is as you describe.
    If there would a possibility for artists to create their own galleries like on deviant art or pixiv I suspect that server may not be able to handle a load from increased popularity and not even negative comments will matter anymore, because finding a good place to post your pictures is not easy to find.
    So maybe that fear has some reason behind it. It is not so hard to make a great site with huge traffic, but it may be hard to handle later if it grows too big.

    Speaking about Guro community size again, even if it may seem big for you but it is not that big as we would like it to be. Only a small fraction will participate, while most will just browse. Also, people have different tastes and ignore stuff they don't like what makes it even worse.
    Of course, if you count all people with something that resembles Guro interests it will be a decent crowd, but if only a few are interested in the same stuff as you are that's no use.
    Take your game as an example, I am not really that interested in girls being raped by monsters(even if I would still try to play it). I would rather prefer something funny. So you will need to find support from people who like girls being raped by monsters and that will be a small fraction of all community.

    I did not mean that I want to post negative comments but on some other sites I got banned just because I politely told the artist that I don't like that kind of content and prefer another kind fo content. even saying that your '3d character skin seems to be too blue" is considered a negative comment. artists themselves seem not to dislike it as much as mods who are paranoic about anything that can be understood controversially.
    In those situations, you probably can post a picture of horses ass and the only comments you will see is great works please post more, what devalues all comments.
    Ideally, you have to keep some balance between positive and negative when you interact with people they must see that in general it is positive but they can expect some negativity as well. being positive all the time will devalue you. In all kinds of relationships, you should seek to remain as unpredictable as possible.

    Comment too long, view post No.9723 to see the full comment.
    >>
    >>9723
    I dont have time to post right now.

    It wouldnt be wrong to say I overvalued community and the impact of positivity while underestimating artists naturally moving from place to place in my posts.

    I decided to post with complete honesty about my feelings on the place, and in some places my reasoning is less than objective.

    I also disagree with my old post that Im trapped between a rock and a hard place and its impossible for me to do more, im relaying a feeling of frustration thats months old… but the truth is that the server owner has become more responsive and I could likely push for improvements.

    I should be honest and say that the lack of traffic here can be reasonably blamed on a mix of factors, potentially including a lack of sense of community– which is something I could work harder to being by being positive instead of critical, but I dont have a lot of time these days. But it makes sense to think our changed url and history of disappearing is at fault to. Its stubborn of me to say otherwise.

    But lets drop the criticism, which is something Im doing to blow off steam. Thats no good, I'm part of the problem to, contributing to a heavy atmosphere with brooding cynicism and harshly worded reprimanda.


    Comment too long, view post No.9725 to see the full comment.
    >>
    Also, activity is picking up here very slowly. Artists come, some stay, its been quite a while but were picking up a little bit of steam. Its less than it could be but its there. We have lots of lurkers who will all post thanks if OP posts or something like that, and we do have a good round up of artists posting high quality smut. /g is sadly slower than it used to be. But that might be because guro is more often behind paywalls these days.

    But in general we could be worse off. Theres nothing wrong with considering how to improve, regardless.

    To those of you into combat guro/ryona - amazons, female soldiers, female criminals dying in battle - what is your favorite fatal wound location?
    >>
    Belly area. I want to see her guts spill from her body, struggling to keep them in as she fights on.
    >>
    Decapitation or some sort of sudden brain damage. Basically anything that disrupts or separates the brain from the body.

    For me, I started off with thoughts of consuming women which gave me great distress and a lot of guilt. But later on I started reading about the idea of ejaculation being an expense of energy/life force/qi/ki (氣) and I went back to it so as not to feel like a victim.
    >>
    I don't know why you would feel guilty of thinking something (having body parts in your freezer is another matter!). If I did that, I'd probably have to blow my brains out (and there! I just thought of suicide - should I feel guilty about that too?) In fact, I believe that you should embrace and explore those dark thoughts, so you can understand them fully, and not become victim to them. We're all monsters, and denial is dangerous – integration of the Jungian shadow and all that.

    I don't think I have leanings towards gynophagia as such, but I do like hard vore, it would seem beasts with big teeth are better suited to the task of chomping women than I am. I think it's just wires crossed in my brain between the predator and sexual circuits TBH. I've enjoyed that sort of thing as long as I can remember.

    Does anyone know if Daz3d renders are somehow tagged, so that they can be traced back to your Daz account?
    I'm assuming they are, but is it actually true? If so, is there a way to "anonymize" your renders?

    I've done quite a bit of work in Daz3d, but I've been very hesitant to post any of it (here or anywhere else for that matter). Not so much because of the nature of my work, which should be legal in most places, but because I haven't paid a dime for any of the 3d models and materials I'm using. I don't want to be hit with a 100000$ dollar compensation demand while simultaneously being outed as a gurofag.
    >>
    Daz renders are pictures, and they are just as much traceable as any other pictures.
    I don't know anything about Daz including covert watermarks on thee pictures and that would not make much sense or meaning for them to do. If they did it, I think it woud be known already.

    Considering daz content, as much as I heard from complaints of content producers, Daz does not give a fuck about piracy as there are plenty of 3d content sites and nobody cares. Nobody even bothers to complain about that. So that's one more reason why they would not do it. It seems that payment is totally voluntary here.
    >>
    >>9651
    >>9653

    To add to Onix's post, most images contain something called EXIF metadata.

    If you search for 'EXIF metadata editor' you'll find some apps that might help you. Or search 'Remove EXIF data from pictures'. Fair warning, I haven't tried any of this, and I don't use Daz.
    >>
    >>9656
    This counts as tagging possibility, but DAZ does not ad any EXIF data to the picture and if it exist it is on the plain view, any image viewer will show that information

    I believe loli and children belong on their own board. This isn’t about judging others for their particular fantasy. It’s about it being a turn off for other users who have to pass by the content. Much like how fur is a turn off for many users.

    This is a bigger issue in the 3dcg board. There are eventually going to be child models that are very realistic. And for some users, that will be much too disturbing. For me, it’s a huge buzzkill.

    Young boys and girls can die, they can be the subject of nightmare fantasies. I don’t want the content banned. I just want some way to filter it out.
    15 posts omitted. Click Reply to view.
    >>
    >>9642
    While true, it's easier to say "oh there's scat" and it's unique as it's its own category rather than an auxiliary tag, there's poop or there's not, but the girl could be subjectively aged.
    >>
    >>9645
    >but the girl could be subjectively aged.
    That is true, but in many cases it's extremely clear that the characters are pre-pubescent just from the thumbnail.
    >>
    >>9645
    Actually, "scat" does not apply to 3d and art boards.
    3d is for all kind of 3d and art is for all kinds of drawn pictures.

    >>9644
    Well, tell me what age is Nearme Or Cookie or Sadie/Sam characters?

    Normal Genesis is pretty much same situation, lolis are just smaller and adults are bigger you can only see their age when they are put side to side or compared with some other reference objects. keep in mind that those characters are not going to be statistic averages. They are on the edge of realism.

    For example "Teen Josie 7" character is just as good as adult or preteen. And this is valid for all cure characters who have relatively smooth round faces and big eyes.
    This is even a real problem for normal porn there are situations when adult actors are mistaken for CP
    Sure you can make character unmistakeably adult but when you try to make a loli character it is a bit harder to make it look as young as you want.
    If we have teenager characters they are totally indistinguishable from 18-year-old adults
    >>
    >>9647
    I think a full-blooded "Teen Josie 7" is pretty firmly in the danger territory when it comes to CP accusations.
    The issue is not really the face, as I see it, but that her body is really immature. She honestly looks like a 12-13 year old, not even considering her size.

    I've used her some times, but it's always been no more than 30% Josie body (and maybe 30-60% head) on a Victoria7/G3 background. With some tweaks that gives you an appropriate 17-19 yo physique. (Younger wouldn't make sense for me anyway since my characters are generally soldiers/henchwomen/space marines.)
    >>
    >>9650
    It may look like that by some MILF standards, but if you compare her to 18+ porn stars (especially Japanese), she looks fully grown-up petite girl.

    Either way, the fact that you described the most attractive type of character as dangerous territory, is the proof that this separation is not going to work.

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